Alright, here’s the 1st installment of “Fun With Numbers” and this particular installment talks about “end game”…
… and more specifically, zeroing in on what you need to do via diet and nutrition to get your to a specific point that we may be able to now MEASURE ACCURATELY.
You’re also going to discover a few more ‘elegant’ metrics that are embedded within the Adonis Index that you never really knew of.
Stay cool,
Brad
(p.s. This pic is crappy, I know. But, I left my camera cord at home and didn’t feel like going through the snowed roads to get it so I could put the pics we took this morning up. MY BAD!)
{ 43 comments }
Brad & John,
Calorically, how would this work for those – like myself – who fall under the build category?
IE: I’m 6’0 at 170 pounds and based on this hypothesis, need to get to 180 pounds.
How would I distribute the caloric surplus (assuming this is required) to optimize muscle gain and minimize fat gain? I’m guessing that a longer time frame is ideal, but would be curious to hear your thoughts.
-Scott
Scott,
There is no research that I can point to relating muscle building to a caloric surplus. Muscle building seems to just take time. You can give creatine a try and see if that helps add volume to your muscles.
JB
go heavy for buidling muscle. exhaust it. keep the intake up and use that for fuel while you build. also when you eat after and during the course of a day for energy and recovery.
creatine will blow you up fore sure. just temporarily.
Fascinating stuff. So at 5’11″ and… I would say endo-meso, I guess my optimal weight is around 173-180? That sounds right. I knew I needed to get to at least 180-185, but after seeing how muscular John is at 180-185, along with some of these other numbers, I figured I probably need to get a touch lower than that.
Brad, I am 6 foot and have basically same body type as you. Other factors are that I am 20 and might still have some juvenile height growth on the horizon. (my brother at 22 just grew another 2 inches). Your shoulders are already where they need to be at 52, What would you do if you still need to get from 49 to 52 and your waist needs to decrease the same amount, like 37 to 32? Should I concentrate on losing down to 32 waist first, or work on getting to 52 inch shoulders and then diet down?
Thanks,
Brian
Brian,
You can do both. Workout to build your muscles, eat to lose fat.
John
feed the muscles with lots of goodness…and burn the fat with a little target cardio…the kind your body says works for YOU!
HIIT broke down my muscles…i had to switch to lower speed, higher inclines to build and it still seems hard!
Good luck! its a tough nut to crack, but once you get there – adaptive thermogenesis will take care of you 80% of the time so long as you’re taking care of the nutrition 80% of the time
Interesting theory, I’ll look forward to seeing your results. The maths is swimming over my head at the moment, English was my favourite subject at school… but if you can create a simple online tool to use this may help a lot.
I’m interested if frame size is any different than body type and how that affects metrics. At 6′ and 6″ wrists and a current body weight of 145, it could possibly take the rest of my life or longer to add the amount of muscle to get to 170-180 lbs, especially given the info you are presenting on how difficult it actually is to add muscle.
PJ,
You seem to be an ectomorph and we’re working on correction factors for true ecto’s and endo’s. It seems that there could be up to a 7-10 pound difference between a true ecto and the middle (meso). So I wouldn’t get hung up on needing to build up to 180 pounds if I were you. I would focus on improving AI ratio. I’m assuming you’re pretty lean and body fat isn’t an issue for you?
John
Interesting…at 5’8 my current Body Fat/waist/shoulder/weight/index is 16%/33/49/165/1.48 and puts me in build-burn. By your math and the chart in the Adonis book, the closest AI is at 31w 50sh.
I’m an ecto-meso
That’s 10 lbs lost, 2 inches on the shoulders, and puts me at 155–10% BF. I don’t have all the numbers but at my “peak” at 32 yrs old (14 yrs ago) I had a 31 waist 6%bf and 163 lbs.
I must have been huge (for my height) and I never saw myself that way. Anyway, it’s pretty weird to visualize myself at 155 but I’m gonna give it a shot anyway.
Now I have to save to buy a new wardrobe
Mike
I think I am one of the few cases of extreme endomorph.I’m a pretty short guy at 5’9 and I started the program at 235, admittedly fat as hell haha, I’ve been cutting for 10 weeks now and I’ve dropped 20 pounds hovering around 215 sometimes a little lower sometimes a little more depending on the day, I started with about a 42 inch waist now down to 38 and shoulders at 53 inches and get this, my shoulders have not changed AT ALL, In fact since I’ve been doing my burn system workouts my shoulder measurment actually went up to 53 1/2 inches. Aside from all that I can’t thank you enough for all you guys do, coming from someone who, from a young age, always followed what the bodybuilding mags had to say, Im losing TONS of weight and yes I took a progress pick at the beginning so that I can post everything later on. I can already see the vague outline of my abs and I’m super stoked!
Thanks again!
I really found the comments on “wet” & “dry” weight interesting. Can following ESE 2/week put you in a dry state or does it have be a more severe caloric restriction? I eat ~2000 kal on other days. Also I eat 3000 to 4000 calories every once an a while and I’m able to gain roughly 0.25″+ in shoulder measurement. Does this confirm I’m at a dry weight? Can muscle still be built effectively when your dry as long as your workouts are intense enough? I lean heavily toward ecotomorph gentics (current measure 5-6% BF, 46.25″ shoulders, & 30.25″ waist, ht 6′ 0″, weight 144.) Hope your upcoming vidoes give some insight.
Thanks,
Jeremy
Jeremy,
When Brad is referring to wet and dry weight he is talking even more acutely. For example a ‘dry’ weight is simply after fasting and perhaps after a day of light eating + a fast. A ‘wet’ weight would be after a couple days of eating at or close to RMR or even above. The point of these categories is to remind you that most of us have a range of weights we could be on a daily basis based on our food and water intake.
John
Great post. Since this past September, after purchasing Brad’s Eat Stop Eat and going ‘hard core’ with fasting (going 3 to 5 days straight a week, every week since Sept), I have lost approximately 35 pounds and for every 6 pounds reduced, I lose 1 inch off my waist. Very accurate and easy way to track changes.
Robert,
Great job on dropping the weight! And thanks for sharing your information about weight lost vs inches. We’re trying to collect as much data on this as possible to come up with an equation of weight lost vs inches lost and your data is very valuable.
John
Stop the world cus I wanna get off… Okay, so my brain hurts now after listening to that Mr Pilon.. I’m 6ft2 and 175lb and I estimate about 15% BF, but from what I understand I should be aiming for 194lb give or take 7lb?
I am actually in the process of dieting down now to 165lb – which incidentally is the weight I was last time I was shredded…
Mmmmm I have no chance in hell, at 40yrs old, of being ripped at 165lb and then gaining that much muscle again to be shredded at 190+lb..
Faints!
Jo,
This is Brad’s experiment on himself (to be clear that was Brad Howard). Anyway, this is our calculations for a typical middle of the road mesomorph. It sounds like you’re a bit more ectomorphic if you can get all the way down to 165lbs at 6’2. Again to be clear these are the calculations we’ve come up with for a typical mesomorph (in other words average frame and size).
JB
My apologies but I have long suspected that Barban, Pilon and Howard are indeed one and the same guy, go on admit it!!!
Oddly enough until I was about 18yrs old I was really overweight ( 16stone and 6ft). At 20 I discovered the gym and lost 4 stone very quickly, and have been around 12stone since..
Guess I do have a more ectomorphic makeup than anything else, so i’ll have to keep on plugging away with my weights, creatine and keep an eye on the calories, and hope that my shoulders may one day turn into boulders!
John,
re your comment to scott, this is something I’m really struggling to get my head around. If your waist and shoulders are both below the ideal for your height, and your weight is below the estimated ideal weight, then to hit your golden measurements you need to get bigger and put on weight. Now I still don’t understand how you can get bigger without a calorie surplus (even if it’s only a very mild one). Where does the extra weight come from? Surely if you’re eating at your maintenance level, you’ll stay the same size? I thought that was what maintenance level meant!
I know you’ve gone over this ground before, but I’m afraid I’m still not getting it. Any further light you can shed on this matter would be much appreciated.
thanks,
Dan
Dan,
People can gain muscle without being in a caloric surplus. The extra weight is partly due to increased water in the muscle and some protein building (although this second effect happens very slowly)
John
My only question is: Why are you using Build for this experiment and not the Build/Burn?
(I’m still reading the posts above me, so if this has been asked and answered already, I apologize)
Because I’m now close to being in the “build” program and don’t want to switch mid stride.
Any of the programs will work just fine. The deficit is what I’m after, which is gonna be all nutrition based.
B
the diet i don understand? because muscle requires protein to be maintained, so surely it would work by eating 1000 calories? unless he ate only protein, ca any1 explain to me. i understand the hypothesis is that he wont loose muscle if your strength training, but surely there is a baseline minimuim of protein?
thanks
The amount of protein to maintain muscle is grossly overstated.
Most “normal” North American diets supply enough protein (over 100 grams per day roughly) to support muscle growth and maintenance.
Also, don’t forget that your body is always “recycling” and “re-pooling” proteins into the blood stream (see “How Much Protein” Book for details)
B
Okay so my current numbers support your theory almost exactly. Currently I am 5’11″ with a 34.5″ waist. I was about 185lbs fed and about 180 fasted. I figured I would need to get down to about 170lbs fasted and 175 fed to get to my ideal waist of 32″. Also, if memory serves me, when I had a 36″ waist, I was around 190lbs. I wouldn’t say I’m an ecto, but possibly a little ecto-leaning. Also, I haven’t been training for very long (5 months consistently, 3 years sporadically). So my muscle mass is a little less than someone who has been training for several years. That means when I get to a 32″ waist, I may even be a little under 170 fasted. This seems pretty achievable to me!!!
My guess, you’ll be sub 168 “dry” at your ideal waist and shoulders, and 172-173 ish normalized.
It’s a cool experiment none the less.
B
This is a REVOLUTIONARY video. This single video has answered questions that I’ve had for years. I’ve always wondered what my idea weight is and the bodyfat % that corresponds to it. And now I know. I’m tempted to post this video on my Facebook wall but I can tell you right now that people will not receive it well, and that fact makes me not even want to share this GOLDEN GOLDEN information with anyone and just keep it to myself. I sound bitter I know lol but it can be very frustrating. I’m SO glad I can put a name to it: persecution! Just the other day I was telling two people about how I fast 1 to 2 days a week and I got the very same reaction from both, “ohh that’s not healthy you know”. SIGH
“Persecution” is a strong word, but it’s the only one I can think of that accurately describes what happens in the emotional tone I’m trying to convey.
B
I’m 5’7″ with a 39″ waist and I need to get down to 31″ waist. My plan of action: 1200 cals 6 days a week, 2200 cals 1 day a week, until my waist gets down to 31″ (in about 3.5 months). I’m a pure endomorph. What do you guys think of this plan?
Thanks for the golden info
What we think really doesn’t matter
The math is there, the question is whether you can stick to it.
Write those numbers down on a calendar and mark them off as you achieve them.
This helps a lot.
B
This question seems to be a bit on the topic.
I have heard this myth or what one should call it, and it is that you geta wide waist from squatting and deadlifting without a belt. Wanna debunk this myth?
Yeah I’ve heard this too, saying that it builds the lower back and hip muscles as well as others?
Although if true, you’d be able to achieve the same the same effect doing different exercises that used the same muscle groups.
Please answer this question, thanks!
Hi,
I realised you said you would be coming up with some correctional factors for extreme endo / ectos. Based on that, I have a quick question.
Age: 21
Height : 6foot~6foot1
Weight: 60KG
Shoulder Circumfrance: 44.5inches
Waist : 28.5inches
Based on my measurements I’m pretty sure I’m an extreme ectomorph, so I’d understand if you’re not able to answer this.
I started using the manual with the same waist measurement but have gained about 3.5 inches in shoulder circumference.
Can you hazard a guess as to what my ideal weight would be?
using the AI manual I think my ideal waist is 32, and shoulders is 52.
Sunde,
First of all congrats on the gain in shoulder measurement growth! That is impressive. I agree that you’re a true ectomorph and I’d say not to worry about bodyweight. There are many factors that go into your day to day weight and I wouldn’t worry too much about bodyweight (it’s an irrelevant number)
I really cannot guess at what your weight might be.
And yes our calculations are for average mesomorphs so if you don’t hit our calculated numbers exactly I wouldnt’ worry about it, just focus on your ratio and building muscle…you’ll look good no matter what you weigh.
JB
This is great stuff (as always) guys. I do have one lingering question here…I am 6’4 223 right now. Ive lost 7lbs since going AI 2.5 weeks ago and my ideal w/s are 34/55. I would consider myself a meso-endo (I would probably consider myself heavily endo). I am now almost to a 35″ waist, which by this calculation means 5 lbs away from my ideal waist. HOWEVER, my problem, and what has always been my problem are my hips. My body for whatever reason, just stores all of my weight in my legs and on my hips (lower back). Can I assume that once at the golden waist that the 5lbs will equate to an inch off the hips??? Do you have any speculation as to how to factor that in to the “goal” or ideal weight once set? I feel like 205ish may be right on once I get there, but since I consider myself to be somewhat unique when it comes to fat distribution, where does that all fit in?
Brad & John, very interesting and also inspirational for me as well. … Very helpful. I am hoping that the more muscle I build, the more my skin will tighten up, especially since I lost a ton of fat.
Thanks,
Doug (GotSerious)
Brad,
Don’t mean to be hatin on ya but that picture is old as DIRT. When are we gonna see a new one? At least put up the recent one on your fb or something.
Josh B
LOL according to the Rule of 7s, I have about 20 more pounds of muscle to develop before my body is optimized. Yikes!
hi my shoulders are already 52 inch and my waist is 38 but iam not that fat and big built.i could probably get my waist to 34.what do i do make my shoulders bigger or do I stop all shoulder work.
Hi guys,
I have quite a big problem:
I`ve been a fat kid for almost all my life (I`m 20) and since I found Adonis and Anything Goes Diet everything changed . My results are going very well but I`ve mostly been focusing on weighloss cause I really hate being fat. I`m 5`9 (176 cm) and I now weigh 140 lbs lost 36 in the last 2 moth with severe diet following AGD and ESE pricniples. My waist is 75 cm and even though thats almost 4 cm below my ideal Adonis waist I barelly can see a bit of my upper abs. What should I do?Keep dieting or go more on amintanance and focus on growin?MY shoulders now are 113 cm so my AI is roughly 1.5 . Please any advice would be great and PS. how do I now my end weight so I can stop dieting?
I’d just focus on growing. You’re young, take advantage of the window you have.
Ok thanks alot for the feedback:)
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